Ideas (Endless WIP)

[Pastoolio]

So during the KS campaign itself, I had tons of ideas that I would constantly pester Jake about. I'm going to throw a lot of those into here to inspire/give to other backers for their rewards. I probably wont decide on my rewards until way later into the development, so might as well let the ideas flow

I'm just going to copy-pasta some in and make some edits:

"-Boss Floors: The idea of having floors that are specifically for creating or hosting single unit bosses. They could be purchasable via the floor for large amounts of resources, or they could follow a sorta-kinda crafting system involving parties. For example, to create the Archdemon Vlasblaag, you would need to bring a horde of 1 demonic overseer and 3 acolyte cultists to the Throne of Hell floor and then pay and/or sacrifice them to summon him. For a construct boss, you could have 4 separate kinds of constructs that all join to create a mechanized terror machine. Maybe even for some bosses, its just having a certain type of unit survive long enough to grow up and be terrifying. It would be a fun twist and a long-term goal for dungeon design."

"Floor design: So currently floors are a fixed length (with some differing heights) to match aesthetics and ui design for mobile platforms. So here's an idea: Imagine a floor as a 1x3(or 4) rectangle. So for a good majority of the floors, it makes sense to have them match to stay in line with a built-dungeon. Now imagine if it were possible to have 1x3 floors that extended to the right maybe 3 more units. I was imagining a concept of a certain monster tunneling into the dungeon from the right to create the idea of the floor. For example you have a floor that aesthetically appears to be a standard built dungeon floor, but has ant tunnels on the side. Then, you could implement a trap based around heroes getting lost inside said tunnels to the right. The user doesn't necessarily need to see the heroes or any pixel art to the left to understand what has happened, and it allows for other interesting stuff for backers to create. It also pairs in with co-op if you wanted to have it where its a part of both players dungeon, allowing for planning and teamwork between the two of you. Overall, I feel like its still possible while maintaining the interface of a slim dungeon, and allowing a cool concept of non-visible vastness to the dungeon. "
- Jake has final say here, that's a pretty big gameplay change. Just thought it would make some neat things happen in co-op.

[ThirdAnguis]

"-Boss Floors: The idea of having floors that are specifically for creating or hosting single unit bosses. They could be purchasable via the floor for large amounts of resources, or they could follow a sorta-kinda crafting system involving parties. For example, to create the Archdemon Vlasblaag, you would need to bring a horde of 1 demonic overseer and 3 acolyte cultists to the Throne of Hell floor and then pay and/or sacrifice them to summon him. For a construct boss, you could have 4 separate kinds of constructs that all join to create a mechanized terror machine. Maybe even for some bosses, its just having a certain type of unit survive long enough to grow up and be terrifying. It would be a fun twist and a long-term goal for dungeon design."

I'm actually doing something like this as one of my Tyrant-level rewards (in my case it's a trap that sacrifices heroes to create boss encounters), so working out the mechanics of having one big enemy for bands of heroes to fight are are already queued!

[Sol_Protege]

I like the idea of Boss floors, maybe having the option of adding one at every 10th level would be nice way to stabilize the dungeon. So while most minions travel in packs, patrolling floors, we could have Bosses stay stationary and protect only that floor instead, preventing single heroes from slipping past your preoccupied units and acting as powerful floodgates as the game progresses. Sacrificing existing minions would be a good way to balance them out, making the player choose between a group of units or one very powerful one. But the only thing is I don't think it should be necessary to move the units to the desired floor, mainly because it would take too much micromanaging (and the fact we currently have no direct control where minions go). You should just be able to press a button and have it happen.

Also, I think there should be more differentiation between Boss units, Legend and Champion level units. Would Bosses be the next tier? Or something else entirely?

Minion: Basic Unit
Champions: Upgraded minions created from a combination of resources/items/artifacts and or surviving multiple battles.
Legends: Unique Champion, with unique name and traits.
Bosses: Created from sacrificing/fusing a combination of units

[Vryl]

"-Boss Floors: The idea of having floors that are specifically for creating or hosting single unit bosses. They could be purchasable via the floor for large amounts of resources, or they could follow a sorta-kinda crafting system involving parties.

One question about these boss monsters: since they are alone, albeit large, are adventurers still going to run by once there are four fighting? Or will the big boss prevent anyone getting past... at least, until the room is completely full, presumably six or seven heroes? If the former, then what Sol Protege was saying about floodgates doesn't really work unless the boss is really killing heroes off as fast as they come. If the latter, the extra heroes will either wait in the back for someone to die or join the rotation even if it means some heroes are in positions further back than 4 and are unable to do anything. Either way, the boss will be liable to release a horde once it dies.

[Jake]

I also like the idea of boss floors, but I'm still wrestling with a few things mechanically. Sol is right about the need for distinction; either there are clear rules that differentiate these floors from others, or else we can't do anything drastically different for bosses. This also means we have to establish a set of rules that will accommodate boss floors very broadly, so we aren't limiting our possibilities too much.

So, what do we want to do differently with boss encounters?

It sounds like we want them to be very tough, which will generally mean lots of defense, health, and special abilities. But how will they use those abilities if they are solo? Other characters activate abilities based on their position in the line-up, but most bosses sound as though they'll be going it alone, so we need to define rules for how they activate abilities. Some boss encounters may include multiple characters, though, so the new rules can't disallow that. Should bosses shuffle between the four slots anyway, even when they are alone? What if we want to put bosses in the background of a floor, to make them look more massive (this idea may not work so well, simply because heroes don't have animations that will look good attacking the background)?

It sounds like we want to use them as gates, so we should keep people from passing through until the boss is defeated. Keeping everyone from passing through will be clearer to players than having a cap on this, and they can all safely wait in the floor's background (remember that they are dimmed out while a battle is in progress, so even a huge crowd won't get in the way). There are a few things we can do to keep the opening floodgate from being too overwhelming: some bosses could bestow some final penalty on everyone in the room (maybe they explode, dealing a bit of damage to everyone, maybe they issue one last curse--these things could simply function as traps, triggered by the boss's death), some bosses may drop treasure, which greedy adventurers may take and return to the surface with (see this thread for some of my plans with chests), and we can institute an occupancy limit on the elevators so they can only file off the floor in small groups (I'll be doing this anyway for the new wave system). Incidentally, if the boss drops a chest or two with epic artifacts inside, you'll be able to get them for yourself if your minions can kill the heroes that take them.

It sounds like we don't want to allow general minions on these floors. Perhaps this rule only applies while a boss is on the floor, but I think it should always be true, for clarity's sake. This means that only the boss (or members of the boss encounter) and passing heroes are permitted here.

It sounds like we want to limit the number of these floors allowed. I am planning a similar limitation on "checkpoint" floors (See this thread), where you can only build one of these floors every five levels or so, because these kind of floors will greatly break up the flow and pace of your dungeon. Given that we may not permit minions to enter boss rooms, perhaps an empty one can also double as a checkpoint floor?

It sounds like we want to make bosses expensive or otherwise difficult to acquire. Anything that ties up this many heroes will require a lot of balancing, so I think we'll probably start with one "boss" floor in the alpha (ThirdAnguis's possession floor is looking like a decent candidate) and see if we can find the sweet spot for cost/reward. Some may have special trigger circumstances in addition to a setup fee. We may also have to require a cool-down after a boss is slain.

Ultimately, I think it's a little weird to look at bosses in a minion->champion->legend->boss sort of way, because while the bosses may be stronger than champions and legends, they are more limited, with less strategy attached (no partying), and they may actually die more frequently, seeing as they are less likely to catch a break and never receive reinforcements. They are almost more a type of floor than a type of minion. You can still use items on them, but I don't think I'll make them eligible as heralds.

How does all of that sound to everyone?

[Sol_Protege]

It sounds like we want them to be very tough, which will generally mean lots of defense, health, and special abilities. But how will they use those abilities if they are solo?

How about activating abilities based on how much damage the boss has taken or how many heroes are present? For example: a cleave ability (or attack bonus) is activated when there are at least 4 heroes present on the floor (all slots are occupied). Or a projectile defense ability when there are multiple archers and mages present. For basing it on boss health, maybe you could throwing out special abilities at decrements of 75%, 50%, and 25% health?

What if we want to put bosses in the background of a floor, to make them look more massive (this idea may not work so well, simply because heroes don't have animations that will look good attacking the background)?

This sounds interesting, then you then could use the four slots on the opposite side (reserved for minions) and give them to heroes to make a it look like a large 8 vs 1 battle. But I'm not sure if its possible though based on the architecture (only Jake could know that). Personally, as long as the boss is animated in the background and shows some depth (and isn't just a static image), I would be okay with it just being in the background. This could also the the visual distinction the bosses have from Legends and Champion units, making them more of a floor type.

[ThirdAnguis]

Can you have the "boss" take up all four slots of the villainous side of the battle, so that the heroes' abilities work in all slots? You could have them share a hit point pool, or give each segment an individual health meter but when one dies they all die. I dunno, just tossing out ideas.

[Vryl]

I like the boss taking up as many slots as it has abilities, if you take my meaning. I remember back in the kickstarter streams you said that at present nobody targeted a specific slot, just primary or all - as such, the boss would always be the primary as far as enemies attacking it are concerned, but if it has three abilities then it could follow the same programming as a regular minion with two allies. In an example, let's say we have a minotaur:

Turn one (primary): swing a big axe. Melee damage to all (up to four) adventurers.
Turn two (rotated to tertiary): blood rage. Restore defense because he's just too mad to feel the pain.
Turn three (advance to secondary): gore the primary hero.

The minotaur will just keep using these in sequence. It would also allow you to have one other minion join the battle if you wanted, since it could just stay in the secondary slot (or all the way in the back if you want the minotaur to physically take up the three slots it's filling) until the minotaur has used its axe, then shift forward for that one turn the minotaur wouldn't take. Other bosses could have four abilities and lack any support, or two abilities and allow up to two minions to help out. A boss that you wanted to treat as a regular minion could operate that way by simply moving it back into the normal rotation instead of tanking while it does everything it can.

[Jake]

One of my concerns with the ability usage is that I want it to be clear what the boss is about to do, so if the boss cycles through their abilities without physically cycling through the positions, we should otherwise indicate where they are in the cycle.

I could display a little number under the boss, so the minotaur example would remain in the primary slot and just cycle through their abilities, with the number below them changing. I could also add similar numbers below all combatants, to help make combat a little clearer to new players, so they can see that the slot number corresponds with abilities. It's just that the boss's would change without them physically moving to another slot.

I'm still a little wary of putting them on this different system, though, because not all bosses should function this way. I think I want to physically move them through the slots, maybe taking on a different stance in each, to kind of justify their movement. So when the minotaur cycles to the third slot, they take a slightly more restful pose, as they restore defense. Then when they come forward, they take a more deadly stance.

I think Vryl is right that this will play nicer with battles where the boss is joined by other allies. I could still do the number thing, though.

When they are in the back slots, they'll still count as the lead character, so characters can still walk up and hit them. There is one type of character I've described as possibly targeting non-lead characters, and that's backstabbers; I'm not going to worry about them just yet, though, because that ability could still change. Pretty much every other attack ability targets either the leader or the entire party.

The background boss with eight heroes--four on either side--sounds pretty cool, but I don't think it'll work out so well, mechanically. Maybe if we bring a head or appendage out of the background, hovering in the middle of the battle, so that the heroes could still strike at it? This is just a fun thing to think about; I don't know that it would actually work out so well.

[Vryl]

That sounds good to me. Maybe add an option where you can toggle the number off if you think you know enough about the bosses and fighting system in general in the 'meddle' section.

The different poses also sounds good, I just wouldn't have suggested it since it seems like a lot of work to do three or four poses per boss! As far as the minotaur is concerned - remembering that he is just an example - he could stand with the axe swung back and ready before the primary attack, rest it on the ground when he's tired and about to restore defense, then lower his head when he's preparing to lunge forward and gore the front hero. A lot of work, as stated, but a player familiar with the minotaur could tell at a glance what he's about to do. This ties in nicely with the option to remove the number system.