Ghosts and nightmares! Woo~ooo!

[ThirdAnguis]

I was thinking a dual use room, where one version of it (perhaps a Haunted Hall) makes poltergeists that carry objects based on the other floors in the dungeon, while the other (tentatively Nightmare Nursery) makes meaner, nightmare versions of existing monsters. Both of which have a trap that lets you steal an enemy champion (fluffwise the poltergeist floor possesses their equipment while the nightmare demon steals their mind).

[Jake]

I like it =). Poltergeists probably require the Crumbling Catacombs (or a later undead floor), and if nightmares are more arcane, then I think that version should require either the Sinful Study or Dark Dwelling (because that floor track has a darkness theme). Unless the nightmares are more demonic, in which case it should extend from the Portentous Portal.

If we go the demonic route, then maybe both require arcane or darkness, so the options are:
[2nd or 3rd tier undead floor] + [Sinful Study? Dark Dwelling?] -> Haunted Hall
[2nd or 3rd tier demonic floor] + [Sinful Study? Dark Dwelling?] -> Nightmare Nursery
I am inclined to give each floor at least two dependencies, because if everything just had one prerequisite, the options would get overwhelming pretty quickly.

The appearance of these nightmare creatures will probably depend on the route we choose. With the poltergeist, I'm picturing some sort of whirling cloud of random equipment items--maybe some chains thrown in for good measure.

If poltergeists and nightmares were both standalone creatures (i.e., you don't buy nightmare versions of existing monsters, you just buy nightmares) then we could make these creatures possess opponents defeated in battle, instead of having a trap. I'm okay with having both, but I think I'd rather condense that functionality; it'll give those minions more unique purpose and also keep the possession mechanics transparent. Perhaps these creatures could also be made to possess your own units somehow?

[ThirdAnguis]

I was picturing the same for the poltergeist, just that the sort of equipment it carried was based on the rooms that you already had in your dungeon, kinda like how the Looming Lunarium creates different werecreatures based on the other rooms in the dungeon. Gears and other industrial scrap with a Scrapyard, mugs and dishes with a Tavern, that sort of thing. I dunno! I guess it depends how many unique clusters of stuff you can think of/feel like animating.

I like the idea of having it tie into the Sinful Study more than the Dark Dwelling. It strikes me as more actively occult and the sort of thing the heretics would be looking into than the evil vibe I get from the dark elves. I also like the split with undead giving the Hall while demons give the Nursery.

I was figuring limit the possessions to a trap because it would be easier to enforce having only one captured hero at a time for presumed balance issues, it seems unfair to get a whole slew of heroes on your side. If it were to be put as an ability on a unit, how would you do it? Is it something you'd need to actively select from a box? Or something automated as a combat maneuver (while a Nightmare is in position 4 in battle it possesses an enemy hero)? That might make it more difficult to latch onto your own units, though. Hmm.

[Jake]

I think I can manage a few varieties of whirling clutter; perhaps we can have a couple champion units that benefit from a special array of items, like you mention a mugs/dishes (maybe pots and pans, as well) poltergeist for the tavern (and kitchen, or even abattoir floors), but perhaps there is a champion version that is exclusively a collection of knives?

In addition to the four slot abilities that characters can have, some characters also have triggerable abilities. Right now, the only type of trigger is enemy death; when an enemy unit is defeated, the game runs through characters, starting with the lead, and triggers any relevant death abilities. Examples are necromancers raising characters from the dead and medusae turning enemies to stone. We could have two triggers on poltergeists/nightmares: one for enemy defeat and one for ally defeat. The poltergeist/nightmare would simply take over the first character to be defeated, be they enemy or ally.

I think the trap version might not make it clear enough that the possession is done by these creatures, and that making it an ability will also render the creatures a little more unique. I imagine they could have relatively weak core stats, but when they combine with other units, they take on those units' stats--possibly with a couple of bonuses. They could probably use the mount system, set up so that when they are defeated while possessing, they will revert to their original state (this is mechanically similar to a warg fighting on after its rider is defeated) and can potentially possess a new victim.

Another interesting possibility would be forcing poltergeists and nightmares to always jump to the most recently defeated character, rather than having them possess and keep someone until defeated. Just a weird option to consider.

If you would rather we explore the trap option more, we can do that, though =).

[ThirdAnguis]

I'm not super attached to the trap option, that was just my first thoughts on the matter. An on-death trigger sounds really interesting! I don't know if I like the "become the most recently deceased unit" aspect, though. In the late game when you have a ton of adventurers going through your dungeon at once, that seems like it could get really, really messy! Even assuming that it's in the same room, their stats could easily change every couple of turns, and I'd feel really frustrated if they took over a super powerful champion only for them to become a no-name pixie a few seconds late.r It's a little too unpredictable for my tastes.

Maybe have their on-death triggers be based on where they are in the order? If they are in position 1 and they kill the hero they're fighting, then they possess him. If they're in position 2 and the minion in front of them dies, they possess them instead. That way the whirling piles of clutter/growling nightmares hang around a little bit longer rather than disappearing the moment someone bites it.

[Jake]

I agree the constant shifting could get pretty messy, but it seemed like an interesting notion to throw out there =).

Regarding triggers, what happens now is that when a character dies, it goes through allied characters to see if they have any triggers, then it goes through enemy characters to check them for triggers, always starting with the front and working back. If one of the triggered abilities eliminates the death state (because they've been resurrected by an ally or raised as a skeleton), then the game stops looking at additional triggers. This way, you can't raise someone and possess them. There isn't currently a position-based element to the triggers, but I can add that, if we want to decrease the frequency of possession (or raising skeletons, in the case of necromancers). In that case, the order of operations above still applies, but triggers will only fire if their owners are in the appropriate slot; this will not function quite the way you outline. If poltergeists have this trigger on the second slot, for instance, then they will only possess someone if the poltergeist is in the second slot when a character is defeated (and only if some other character doesn't take priority due to position). The defeated character's position doesn't really matter.

There should probably be some sort of stat distinction between 'geists and 'mares, not just a visual one. I think poltergeists are probably agility-based, while nightmares may be ward-based; once they take on a host, they'll mostly share the host's stats, though. Should there be other differences between the two? Maybe nightmares have some sort of illusory attack, and poltergeists can lob random items from a distance? Maybe they should also have an extra ability while possessing someone--not just the exact same core stats? Overall, I think they should remain relatively frail on their own (not so much as many first-tier minions, but weaker than most similarly-prereq'd stuff), but maybe you feel differently?

[ThirdAnguis]

Hmm... I think they could do interesting and unique stuff from the back row, yeah. The Poltergeist can probably throw a items for direct damage while the Nightmare does stat-based stuff. Lowers their attack (too scared to move!) or adds extra exhaustion (wake up in a cold sweat!), that sort of thing.

I think you're right about them having slightly weaker stats in their base forms. They really shine when they're possessing a thing -- a poltergeist is only as strong as what it's throwing at you and a nightmare only has so much power when you're awake, after all! Once they take over a creature they should probably get a buff of some kind on top of that enemy's normal stats -- if they manage to possess an enemy champion, they're truly terrors to behold!

[ThirdAnguis]

Just goofing around in SAI a bit, thinking about the Nightmare.

I picture it's idle animation being kind of like the werewolf/construct one, where the fingers flex, and its attack animation is this very exaggerated I AM SO HORRIFYING AND ALL UP IN YOUR FACE thing that takes advantage of the fact that its body can morph. Didn't draft out a movement thing since it's too darn late at night for me to be getting creative with art, but I kind of picture it dragging itself along the ground by its hands while that inky pool of shadow oozes along behind.

Don't feel limited by the skull motif, either! That was just my first thought for something recognizable as "scary", if you've got some other nightmare beast head in mind then have at it!

[Vryl]

Hmm... I think they could do interesting and unique stuff from the back row, yeah. The Poltergeist can probably throw a items for direct damage while the Nightmare does stat-based stuff. Lowers their attack (too scared to move!) or adds extra exhaustion (wake up in a cold sweat!), that sort of thing.

I like that about the Nightmare - it could be like the ghost in Paper Sorcerer. That has, among other things, Dirge of Frailty, which not only makes the entire enemy group more vulnerable to physical attacks, but also lowers their strength. Maybe this Nightmare could do something similar and torment heroes with visions of there impending deaths, decreasing the defense of all heroes in the same floor as they struggle against the mental assault?

[Hipserious]

Anything that's Lovecraft-related is a must for me personally. I'd love to see something like "other dimensional monster" make random appearances depending on certain situations.